MARCH to Occupy Pearl District, Sat. 29th 12:30PM

October 27, 2011
By

Saturday, October 29th

  1. MARCH TO THE CONVENTION CENTER TO PROTEST BANK OF AMERICA’S CYNICAL PLOY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THEY WANT TO HELP THEM “RETAIN” THEIR HOMES.
  2. MARCH BACK ACROSS THE BROADWAY BRIDGE TO OCCUPY PORTLAND’S NEW SITE IN THE PEARL DISTRICT.  ENJOY A CAMP MEETING, AND THEN DINNER BIKED OVER FROM THE OCCUPY KITCHEN.
Gather with us at the waterfront park, Naito and Salmon (by the fountain), at 12:30 pm.  We march at 1:00 pm to the Oregon Convention Center and hand out flyers to homeowners going in to give all their financial data to B of A “home retention specialists.”  In reality, all they’re doing is identifying themselves as probable foreclosure targets, and participating in a cheap publicity stunt.
At 3:30, we will march back across the Broadway Bridge to Occupy Portland’s new site in the Pearl District.  If you plan to help sit-in and break curfew hours bring your sleeping bags, tarps, and mats with you on the march.  NO TENTS!

Jamison Square: NW 11th and Johnson

Camp Meeting starts at 4:00 PM, with a Potluck at 7:00 PM, and a Cuddle Party at 10:00 PM. We plan on staying the entire night.

Occupy Portland is in Solidarity with Oakland, Atlanta, and all other cities which have experienced a hostile police take-over. We will gather for a camp meeting to discuss the prospects of our future political actions, which may include the expansion into new territory.

We will be demonstrating in Pearl District to bring awareness to the inequality of wealth within our very city. We are not proposing redistribution of wealth- we raise our concerns to the truth that basic needs for safety are only guaranteed to those with the economic privilege.

Jamison Square is privately owned a public park*. It is emphasized that you REMAIN ON YOUR BEST BEHAVIOR. Drugs and Drama will not be welcome.

 

Please bring: Food, tarps, sleeping bags, mats, hand warmers, water coolers, and buckets. NO TENTS!

 

Celebrate with the 99%.

 

***This event has been endorsed by the G.A.***

* Update: Jamison Square was incorrectly identified as being privately owned. It is indeed a public park. http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=1140&action=ViewPark

47 Responses to MARCH to Occupy Pearl District, Sat. 29th 12:30PM

  1. Michele on October 27, 2011 at 9:12 am

    Just don’t forget that Portland has a plan in place for mixed use development. There are numerous restricted income properties for rent in the Pearl district. The Sitka, The yards at Union Station, Lovejoy Station, Station Place Tower, Pearl Court and The Ramona to name a few. So, it’s not just the affluent that live in the Pearl.

  2. H5n1 on October 27, 2011 at 11:17 am

    People on OregonLIve are saying this website has been hijacked. It doesn’t look hijacked to me.

  3. janice on October 27, 2011 at 11:48 am

    What the heck? Most of the people who live in the Pearl are the 99%. In fact, some of us have been donating food, medical supplies and clothing to OccupyPDX.

    Why not protest the banks or bankers specifically?

    It’s like OccupyPDX is slapping their own supporters in the face.

    JMHO

    • Ben on October 27, 2011 at 3:05 pm

      So you should be happy be to have everyone there with you!!

    • Ben on October 27, 2011 at 5:46 pm

      Then you should be happy to share the space with everyone in celebration!!

  4. Satyagraha on October 27, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    Though it will be up to the folks doing this action…(obviously) I thought it would be good to let everyone know that there are discussions in the works on how to have this movement be more sustainable and long term. This action was planned before the other issues of sustainability were able to come before the GA.

    However, one of the ideas is to save the tool of political arrest for only the most extreme needed cases. Arrest is but one tool in an entire social movement tool box.

    Due to a lack of capacity already, actions which get everyone arrested right off the bat are not actually very sustainable in long term. Jamison is open from 5am to midnight…a suggestion is OCCUPY everyday non stop 5-midnight. You become a constant presence which can not be ignored in an area where they most likely do not want to hear the message. AND you reduce burn out, prevent the same issues happening at the other camp, as well as cut down on limited resources such as food etc…

    • janice on October 27, 2011 at 4:00 pm

      Satyagraha says, “Though it will be up to the folks doing this action…(obviously) I thought it would be good to let everyone know that there are discussions in the works on how to have this movement be more sustainable and long term.”

      Your move to protest in the Pearl because you think the Pearl represents the “wealthy” is sure to alienate a good portion of your supporters….most of which are the 99% who have felt the effects of our growing plutocracy. You will not grow the movement or reach your stated goal of sustainability for the long term by turning your misguided ire to those who are with you.

      It’s important to remember who the enemy really is and target them intensely. Why pick fights with people who are on your side? Target the banks, bankers, Congress and bought out politicians and leave your own supporters alone.

      This just seems crazy to me.

      • Jeremie NX on October 27, 2011 at 4:25 pm

        Well said. I am a Pearl District resident and I am no where even close to being affluent. I live in a rent-controlled building and rely on transit as I can’t afford a car.

        This “movement” is doing nothing more than disrupting 99%ers in their commutes and giving the impression of being a bunch of “fringe weirdos”.

        Target people in our legislature and government who made and allowed the sweet deals that have ruined our economy. Further, the American people are at least partially to blame for voting these people in, buying products from unethical companies, etc.

        • Larry on October 27, 2011 at 8:50 pm

          For my part (and I am in affordable housing in the Pearl) protestors are welcome to occupy Jameson Square! I don’t know what you’re afraid of.

          • Alan on October 28, 2011 at 10:25 am

            Will you welcome these people into your home to live without expecting them to contribute to any of the expenses?

  5. eric on October 27, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Screw off Occupiers. Nobody wants you in parks in residential neighborhoods. The city officials may have been willing to tolerate you when you are camping next to office and government buildings, but people in residences will not tolerate your filth – whether you try to set up camp at Jamison Square, Chapman Park, Tabor Park, etc. – you’ll quickly find out that you’ve worn out your welcome. You’re a bunch of filthy creeps who are accomplishing nothing positive other than getting people to detest you and your so-called movement further.

    • Jeremie NX on October 27, 2011 at 3:28 pm

      +100000. I am a resident in this neighbourhood and I do NOT welcome your presence. You are costing WE THE TAXPAYERS millions of dollars across the country that will have to be cut from other programs.

      Screw off.

    • Larry on October 27, 2011 at 8:48 pm

      Misinformed comment #1689

  6. Jorden Leonard on October 27, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    I really really really wish I could be there

  7. Mr. Smith on October 27, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    I wouldn’t camp overnight at Jamison Square if I were you. It isn’t safe there.

  8. janice on October 27, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    Saturday, October 29th

    1. MARCH TO THE CONVENTION CENTER TO PROTEST BANK OF AMERICA’S CYNICAL PLOY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THEY WANT TO HELP THEM “RETAIN” THEIR HOMES.

    Remember some of those people who have been foreclosed on also live in the Pearl.

  9. aleph.charles on October 27, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    Even the affluent who live in the Pearl are still not the 1%. Upscale 1 bedroom apartments in the Pearl go for around half a million dollars, well outside the purchasing power of almost all of us (the 90%), but easily affordable by someone making $180k/year, only half the bottom edge of the 1%.

    This is a movement of the 99 percent. Almost everyone who lives in the Pearl is part of the 99 percent, even the ones who seem rich. The 97th percentile looks rich to those of us in the bottom 90%, but they are MUCH LESS rich than the 1%.

    The interests of the top quintile minus 1, the 80th to 99th percent lie more with the rest of us than they do with the 1%, and one of the things this movement needs to be about is making that clear to the top quintile minus one. Confusing them with the 1 percent and using that as a justification for picking a fight in their neighborhood is not a good way to do that.

    That is not to say I oppose having protests in the Pearl or occupying Jameson Park, just that we need to keep in mind that in bringing the Occupation to Jameson, we should be trying to engage the people who live in the Pearl as our allies, not as our enemies.

    • janice on October 28, 2011 at 11:19 am

      Very well said.

      I believe it is important to know and understand that most people have been hurt by what the reckless bankers and politicians have done. Some of us are retired and have worked our whole lives and saved to have a dignified and comfortable life…only to watch the greed and power hungry rob our country of it’s treasures and corrupt our laws for their own enrichment and then ask us to give up what we have counted on and paid into our whole lives.

      Even those of us who do have some money put away or a home that is paid for are watching our life’s savings, home values and retirement be sucked away from us and into the hands of the few.

      When you arrive at the Pearl look around and remember that almost everyone who lives there has been hurt in some way or another by Wall Street and DC and they too are your brothers and sisters.

  10. Shawn on October 27, 2011 at 6:10 pm

    Fact: The average income in the 97209 zip is about 33K/yr.
    Fact: The Pearl is a hetergeneous neighborhood composed of low income and rent controlled housing, most units are studios, one and two bedroom units with a few million dollar+ penthouses.( a mix, like in the good old days)
    Fact: The Pearl has been “redeveloped” from a previously derelict and abandoned state. It’s new, looks clean and shiny. Don’t confuse this with affluence.
    Fact: Most of us living here ARE the 99% and we live here because of the great transportation, walking proximity to work and resources and yes, the nice parks.
    Fact: Many of us support the message and frustration of Occupy Portland. Many of us have contributed to Occupy Portland. Some of us are becoming confused and alienated from the methodology of Occupy Portland
    Fact: Jamison Park and the residents of The Pearl have NOTHING to do with the issues on Wall Street or with the complete gridlock and failure of our elected representatives.
    Fact: The current park occupation has destroyed the space, the grass, the loos, the trees, it’s a squalid mess.
    Fact: Jamison is used by the neighborhood. Families, little kids, dog walking, playing in the fountain. In other words it’s a residential park in a residential area. The occupation has evidenced by the current tent city status will destroy this space.
    Comment: The OP methodology needs to get focused on D.C. and Wall Street and encouraging unified financial action (such as the planned Nov. 5 activity). Take a lesson from the Freedom Riders and The Bonus Army, use your funds to Occupy D.C…that is where everything started.

    Occupying Jamison Park is a bad move and will result in alienation of too many of your supporters. It’s very counterproductive, ineffective and a waste of your time and resources.

    People that work their asses off to be able to live here in any capacity deserve more respect, we are not the enemy.

  11. Common Sense on October 27, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    Quote: “basic needs for safety are only guaranteed to those with the economic privilege”

    Really? So when the cops went looking for the 9 year old kid from your camp, it was because the 9 year old was economically privileged?

  12. yuppiescum on October 27, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    Oh no! Does this draw some lines in the sand that make some of you uncomfortable?

  13. Richard on October 27, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    I’m all for supporting the ideology of Occupy Portland, but I don’t think taking over another park is the answer…the idea of communicating what Occupy Portland wants as their goals, should not be destroyed by getting Portland citizens upset at us….and just a thought, would that not be the ideal time for PPB to take back Chapman Square, and Lownsdale Square, when most of the protesters are camping out in Jamison Square? It’s a bad move if you ask me….

  14. Larry on October 27, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    I live in affordable housing in the Pearl and I’m one of the 99%. Occupy Portland, YOU ARE WELCOME in MY HOOD! Some folks around here want everything to stay the same all the time. Hey, the system needs shaking up in every neighborhood. Some folks in the housing here didn’t want the Portland Loo to go in! Saying the riff raff will come into the park. Hey, I’M THE RIFF RAFF! Go, OCCUPY PORTLAND, GO!

  15. Richard on October 27, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    I think a more effective approach to getting our message out, about our revulsion of greedy banks, would be to have a (peaceful) sit in of as many people as possible essentially surrounding a major bank headquarters, or a main branch in downtown Portland, such as BOA. Making absolutely no noise, but sitting on the sidewalk holding up signs. How would that be effective?…it would not encourage police action since it is a peaceful sit in, and it would drive customers away from the bank because they would not want to pass by hundreds of protesters to do their bank business….After about a week of this silent protesting, then open up a discussion with bank officials, the write off of up to 50% of the mortgage on homes that are in foreclosure with that bank…wouldn’t a protest such as this be what Occupy Portland is about?…for the 99% of us, which includes those that are losing their homes because of bad bank loans….IMHO, an occupation per se, does nothing if you cannot negotiate your demands with the people that you are targeting — the 1%…

  16. rebecca hall on October 27, 2011 at 9:27 pm

    So, here are the reasons for moving to Occupy Portland’s new site of Jamison Square, smack in the middle of a residential area with struggling businesses. (Jamison square referred to as “occupy Portland’s new site on the GA minutes)

    “we want police/media to be there”, “to be in solidarity with Oakland..”, “assemble at Jamison because they wont’ ignore us”, “break curfew hours”, “to highlight the inequality of wealth in our own city”, because “basic needs for safety are only guaranteed to those with economic privilege”

    I thought this was about “fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks, and multinational corps and the role of Wall Street”

    This seems to be a lot less about the original mission statement (above, lifted directly from the OWS website) and more about being mad at your neighbor because they have a greater income or nicer home. There is a subtext at work with Occupy Portland that is greedy, spiteful, angry, myopic and frankly scary.

    What is really going on here?

  17. Tiff on October 27, 2011 at 11:12 pm

    People Please! It doesn’t say anywhere in that notice that they are going to Jamison Square because they think the people living in that area are affluent. How on earth did you interpret it that way? It sounds like a peaceful assembly to me and I don’t see how people in the park would cause a disruption in anyone’s daily commute. Do you drive through the park?

    • Larry on October 28, 2011 at 1:54 pm

      Come on now. Do you really believe that the selection of Jamison Square was made because the park is a convenient place to send a message to the banks? Open your eyes, please. If you are going to support this movement, please look at what the leadership’s VERY deliberate actions are saying. The choice of the pearl site has nothing to do with the banks and Wall St. It has everything to do with protesting what is percieved to be wealth. Despite the pearl being constituted almost entirely by the 99%, there appears to be some stigma that the residents are wealthy. This is a thinly veiled ploy to protest having money, plain and simple. Please don’t try to give it more credit than it deserves.

  18. Angella Davis on October 28, 2011 at 12:09 am

    There is no reason to be afraid.
    No one picked the pearl for the sit-in because it was “wealthy.” No one is trying to hurt you, your livelihood, your neighborhood, or your landscaping. We are your neighbors, co-workers, friends, taxpayers and voters, we are trying to make a better place for all, peacefully, with discussion, discourse and consensus. This is designed to be a quiet camp, respectful and full of shared knowledge.

    • Richard on October 28, 2011 at 7:59 am

      There is absolutely nothing positive to be gained by the movement by having a sit-in at Jamison Square, and there are a lot of negatives that may come of it, such as public disapproval (the 99%) from people that live in that area and don’t make a connection between what Big Banks, and Wall Street, did to the economy, and the occupation of Jamison Square. I SUPPORT the movement, and I don’t get it either, because Jamison Square is so far removed from the real problem….how about protesting in front of some of the big banks in downtown Portland, where the message would have some meaning, and the 99% would make the connection, and approve of the action….

    • Ralley on October 28, 2011 at 10:02 am

      Occupy Portland GA has stated “to be in solidarity with Oakland”. Statement below is the current GA approved action planned by Oakland. This will unfairly impact an entire city of 99% who are just minding their own business, trying to make a living, get their kids to school, etc..

      Why do you want to be in solidarity with this? What does this have to do with Wall Street and the issues in Washington?

      This “proposal was passed” by the Oakland GA

      We as fellow occupiers of Oscar Grant Plaza propose that on Wednesday November 2, 2011, we liberate Oakland and shut down the 1%.

      We propose a city wide general strike and we propose we invite all students to walk out of school. Instead of workers going to work and students going to school, the people will converge on downtown Oakland to shut down the city.

      All banks and corporations should close down for the day or we will march on them.

  19. Bookmarks for October 28th from 08:36 to 09:06 « Mark's life on October 28, 2011 at 1:59 am

    [...] [toread] MARCH to Occupy Pearl District, Sat. 29th 12:30PM | Occupy Portland – [...]

  20. RoseColoredGlasses on October 28, 2011 at 3:30 am

    Where can I begin? This reminds me of hitler Germany. Picking on one segment of the population (1%)( vs. Jews), lots of media and hype rationalizing why this group is bad (greed) (pre-WII inferior race claim), explaining why this group needs to be extinguished…LOOK at history to see what you are doing when you create this rationalization of moral authority.

    You fuck wads don’t fool anybody with your cuddle party bullshit. I am seriously concerned anytime that a group of people seeks to target a minority and convince the majority that it’s humane and compassionate.

    I’m part of the 100% of the human race.

    How ironic that something made up by man (paper money) would drive people to subversive tactics. Who is really led by GREED? Anyone with the title of Occupy. You fault bankers for getting handouts, yet you have no problem getting donations yourselves. If you’re going to protest, then do it independent of others’ influence. This is like guerilla armies in Africa that get sent weapons from the CIA to overthrow weak regimes. Instead of accepting donations, why don’t you ask the SHADOW benefactors to take your place? Can you get any more aggressive?? The only time I think of that word is when groups are seeking to overthrow and conquer…dominate.

  21. TW on October 28, 2011 at 11:33 am

    I am a financial professional (gasp!) that lives in the Pearl, so this article caught my eye. This “occupation” is a horrible idea and once can only hope will be met with the enforcement of the park hours and the city’s anti-camping ordinance. Should make for some nice entertainment.

    Secondly, speaking of 99%, I can guarantee you all that 99% of anyone who is a decent and hard working tax payer disagrees wholeheartedly with your “movement’s” actions. You are accomplishing absolutely nothing but further pissing off real members of society and the policy makers who could actually help fix some of your grievances. We (productive citizens) are sick and tired of paying for your childish and disgusting displays of worthlessness that are going to cost the city hundreds of thousands of dollars in police overtime pay, clean up and emergency services. Unbelievable. Take a look in the mirror, grow up, get a job and make a difference. No, wallowing around in your own filth in a tent is not making a difference. Wake up!

    • Ben on October 28, 2011 at 9:51 pm

      So you can guarantee that I don’t work full time or pay my taxes or support my family?
      I agree that spending all this money on the police is ridiculous. They are an unneeded presence.

      • Ben on October 28, 2011 at 9:53 pm

        And why am I not a real member of society?

  22. sp on October 28, 2011 at 11:58 am

    Protesting outside a bank branch and harassing local branch staff is ALSO not productive. These folks are also the 99%, and many of them were subject to the most severe industry layoffs of the recession, and are supportive of the message you are trying to get out. Anyone working in a bank branch in Portland is not making the kind of money, or decisions, that this movement is supposed to be targeting. I have family who work in a local community bank. If I start seeing people from Occupy Portland harrassing my family, which is firmly in the 99%, I will lose all respect for this group. Please don’t.

  23. Jamison Pearl on October 28, 2011 at 11:58 am

    Please be respectful of our neighborhood. We do a lot in terms of volunteer work and financial funding to keep our “collective front yard” looking beautiful. Jamison Square can handle a lot of families with young children on sunny weekend days fairly well. That after all is why the Portland Loo was installed. On the other hand squatting on and under tarps for days on end is discourteous and unsightly to the residents. You certainly wouldn’t appreciate it if someone were to do the same in your or your parents’ yard.

    In the end it will be us who have to clean up after you. You’re negatively impacting the people you espouse to represent and defend.

    I agree with the previous poster who suggests that your cause remain focused on target, i.e. the financial institutions.

    Please tread lightly.

  24. Kevin Shea on October 28, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    We think the Cuddle Party is a great idea! We just posted about it on our blog (swear it’s not spam!) to help ensure that it goes as smoothly as possible. Please check out our suggestions, and stay warm!:

    http://cuddlelabs.com/2011/10/28/cuddle-puddlesemergency-last-minute-post-change-for-occupy-portland/

  25. Davey Jones on October 28, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    It’s appropriate to March to Jamison Square and have dinner, but please leave before the curfew so there is not a confrontation with the police. You have alot of people on your side so ruin it!

  26. Bongo on October 28, 2011 at 2:32 pm

    Be afraid. Be very afraid. There is a wild pack of werewolves that routinely passes through Jamison Park in the middle of the night. If you don’t want to become eternally damned don’t go there at night.

    • becky on October 29, 2011 at 1:03 am

      I would prefer a pack of werewolves, their objective is clear: search and destroy. Are you saying OP’s objectives are the same? Search and destroy….only it’s in their effing hometown and directed at their neighbors? What a bunch of hooey and shame on you for your thoughtless glib comment.

      In other words,shut-up unless you have something insightful to add to this movement and commentary.

  27. Rose M on October 28, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    I would like to see a large group of people protest against Occupy Portland’s occupation of another park.

  28. Mary on October 28, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    I reside in one of the income-restricted apartments in the Pearl District. I first moved to the Pearl in 2000 after purchasing a modest 600 sq. ft. condo. Over the past ten years my job has been eliminated four times as a result of corporate restructuring, budget cuts etc. With each new job I took a dramatic cut in pay and lost the majority of my retirement and was forced to sell my home at a loss. Two years ago when my position was eliminated, I was forced to begin collecting my social security early, receiving $500 a month less than if I could have waited three more years. I am living on social security in low income housing without a vehicle. The majority of residents of the Pearl are suffering. I know of seven units in one condo that sold recently… all short sales (sold for less than was owed). The Pearl District is just another Portland neighborhood except we live in tall buildings instead of houses. Is this really an appropriate location to camp in a very small neighborhood park???

  29. taiganaut on October 29, 2011 at 2:25 am

    YOU ARE GETTING DISTRACTED. IT WILL BE YOUR UNDOING.

    There is no valid strategic reason to occupy Jamison Square. Among all the other potential issues with this decision, that is the one you should most be paying attention to. Forget everything else and remember this: it will NOT help your cause.

    Also, “Cuddle Party” = -infinity credibility points. Sorry, but get real.

    Oh, and BTW, I’ve dropped several hundred bucks feeding you guys and donating other items (socks, supplies for Medical), hours in camp, and hours of my time advocating online. I worry and suspect that the camp downtown is actually a fairly small core of people whose numbers are inflated by the partiers and folks they’re so graciously feeding, and that some kind of a hivemind has developed at GA. This is just a hunch as I am not a regular participant at GA, but it may in fact be MORE instructive for you to hear what this looks like to a strong supporter of accountability and regulation for criminal bankers who is nonetheless not in camp 7 days a week.

  30. Average Joe on October 29, 2011 at 11:04 am

    I’ve been in and out of the two downtown campsites over the last three, documenting for a photo project.

    In the beginning, there was a positive, upbeat sense of adventure about the protest, but then the tweekers and stoners and violent street people moved in to freeload off the well-meaning politicos. Now the places smells of stale bodies and feces. Folks brush by you reeking of alcohol, BO and pot. The down and out lounge about, staring into space, or sleeping off their lives and bad habits. People who make no sense talk to you from a distant place of alienation and addiction.

    Sorry to say this, but it seems to me the GA is now overwhelmed by what is has wrought, does not see a face-saving exit strategy, and perhaps subconsciously, is hoping that in the move to the fresh, clean, new territory, it can leave the riffraff behind and start over in a better location. As many of the posts here demonstrate, the idea that Jamison Square is the cause of America’s economic ills is downright laughable.

    There’s a history lesson the GA needs to learn; when movements of the left get kookie and self-indulgent and start daring the police to intervene in order to create self-fulfilling martyrs, the American populace turns against them. The antiwar protests of the 1960s did eventually end the war in Vietnam, but brought on decades of right-leaning backlash.

    Careful, Occupy Portland. You are walking on the edge of losing your support and making it worse for the left for decades to come.

  31. Cara on October 30, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    I’m an artist and live on some money from my art, some money from savings from my old job in the public sector, some investments and a small sum from a dead relative. I live in the Pearl District in a 650 sqft condo.

    I read on Huffington Post that “Protesters said they wanted to camp in the Pearl District because they view its residents as part of the wealthy demographic they’re protesting.”

    I found that statement seriously troubling. I have no connection to wealth or corporate corruption yet because of the neighborhood I live in I’m seen as part of the problem? How dare you.

    I was absolutely thrilled when I first read of the Occupy Wall Street movement because I saw it as a legitimate populace movement, as opposed to the corporately backed astroturf Tea Party movement. It was a progressive and liberal counterpart that truly represented people like me.

    Now I’m not so sure.

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